5 JANUARY 1939

Today again we had our usual discussion with Dr. Rao on the removal of splints, the growth of bone, its shadow in the X-ray picture, etc. After he had gone, the Mother asked Nirodbaran: "Up to what age can the skull-bone grow?" She said that she had seen cases where even at the age of fifty-five the skull had not completely ossified. "In such cases," she remarked, "the brain goes on developing." Then she departed for the general meditation.

There was very little prospect of conversation afterwards, for every time after Dr. Rao's visit we would keep revolving the same problem, the disagreement among doctors, and cut jokes about it. But a question by Satyendra, following a piece of information given by Purani, started the general ball rolling.

PURANI: X has been arrested.

SRI AUROBINDO (surprised): Really?

PURANI: He has been a leader from a very young age.

Satyeyndra (addressing Sri Aurobindo): Sir, you must have been very young too when you started the Nationalist movement.

SRI AUROBINDO: About thirty-three, though we were doing Swadeshi long before.

Satyeyndra : Did you begin your Yoga with the experience of Nirvana at Baroda?

SRI AUROBINDO: It was-somewhere about 1905. But I did have some other experiences before it. I felt an immense calm as soon as I landed in Bombay. Then there was the experience of the Self, the Purusha. I had these experiences when I had not yet begun Yoga and knew nothing about it. I was more or less an agnostic. Then I had two experiences of contact with the Infinite-one at Poona on the Parvati hills and the other on the Shankaracharya hill in Kashmir. Again, at Karnali, where there are many temples, I went to one of them and saw in an image of Kali the living Presence. After that, I came to believe in God.

NIRODBARAN: What led you to Yoga?

SRI AUROBINDO: What led me to Yoga? God knows what. It Was while at Baroda that Deshpande and others tried to convert me to Yoga. My idea about Yoga was that one had to retire into mountains and caves. I was not prepared to do that, for I was interested in working for the freedom of my country.

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Then I began to practise Pranayama—in 1905. A Baroda engineer who was a disciple of Brahmananda showed me how to do it and I started on my own. Some remarkable results came with it. First, I felt a sort of electricity all around me. Second, there were some visions of a minor kind. Third, I began to have a very rapid flow of poetry. Formerly I used to write with difficulty. For a time the flow would increase; then again it would dry up. Now it revived with astonishing vigour and I could write both prose and poetry at tremendous speed. This flow has never ceased. If I have not written much afterwards, it is because I had something else to do. But the moment I want to write, it is there. Fourth, it was at the time of the Pranayama practice that I began to put on flesh. Earlier I was very thin. My skin also began to be smooth and fair and there was a peculiar new substance in the saliva, owing to which these changes were probably taking place. Another curious thing I noticed was that whenever I used to sit for Pranayama, not a single mosquito would bite me, though plenty of mosquitoes were humming around. I took more and more to Pranayama; but there were no further results.

It was during this time that I adopted a vegetarian diet. That gave lightness and some purification.

NIRODBARAN: What about meat diet? Vivekananda advocated it.

SRI AUROBINDO: Meat is rajasic and gives a certain force and energy to the physical. That's why the Kshatriyas did not give up meat. Vivekananda advocated it to lift our people from Tamas (inertia) to Rajas (dynamism). He was not quite wrong.

Then I came into contact with a Naga Sannyasi. I told him I wanted to get power for revolutionary activities. He gave me a violent Mantra of Kali, with "Jahi.Jahi". to repeat. I did so, but, as I had expected, it came to nothing.

Barin at that time was trying some automatic writing. Once a spirit purporting to be that of my father came and made some prophecies. He said that he had once given a golden watch to Barin. Barin tried hard to remember and at last found that it was true. The spirit prophesied that Lord Curzon would shortly leave India: he saw him looking across a blue sea. At that time there was no chance at all of Curzon's going back. But the prophecy came true. Curzon had a row with Lord Kitchener and had to leave very shortly afterwards. The spirit also said that there was a

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picture of Hanuman on the wall of the house of Deodhar, who was present at the sitting. Deodhar tried to remember and said there was no such picture. When he went back, he asked his mother about it. She replied that the picture used to be there, but it had been plastered over. Lastly the spirit prophesied that when everybody had deserted us a man who was present there—meaning Tilak—would stand by us. This also came true.

On another occasion a spirit purporting to be that of Ramakrishna came and simply said, "Build a temple." At that time we were planning to build a temple for political Sannyasis and call it Bhawani Mandir. We thought he meant that, but later I understood it as "Make a temple within."

This gave me the final push to Yoga. I thought: great men could not have been after a chimera, and if there was such a more-than-human power why not get it and use it for action?

I had been to Bengal twice or thrice for political work. I found the workers quarrelling among themselves and got a little disappointed.

While I was residing at Baroda a Bengali Sannyasi came to see me and asked me to help him. financially. I did so. But I found that the man was extremely rajasic, jealous and boastful and could not tolerate anyone greater than himself. He used to curse everybody who was greater than him. Once he went to see Brahmananda. He began to curse him because he was so great. Shortly after, Brahmananda died of the prick of a nail. The Sannyasi took all the credit himself! What might have happened was that Brahmananda's death was near and this man got the suggestion of it from the subtle planes.

When I went to Bengal for political work, my Pranayama became very irregular. As a result I had a serious illness which nearly carried me off. Now I was at my wits' end. I did not know how to proceed further and was searching for some guidance. Then I met Lele in the top room of Sardar Majumdar's house.

After my separation from Lele, I had to rely on my inner guide. The inner guide led me through many mistakes. For days and days together I would follow wrong lines and come to know only at the end that it was all a mistake. At that time, I was making all sorts of experiments in order to see what truth there was in various methods.

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I fasted twice—once in Alipore jail and once here. The Alipore fasting gave more results than the second one. Though the fast lasted only ten days I lost ten pounds, whereas here the fast lasted twenty-three days but the loss of weight was less. At Alipore I was having tremendous visions which were all experiences on the vital plane. But as a part of my mind was critical I took them all with reservations. At Pondicherry I was walking eight hours a day while fasting.

DR. BECHARLAL: We have seen in the Guest House the floor marked by your walking at that time.

SRI AUROBINDO: The Guest House? Which room?

DR. BECHARLAL: Amal's room.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, no, no! I fasted in Shankar Chetty's house. Experiences on the vital plane are most exalting and exhilarating at the same time that they are most dangerous and terrible. There are many pitfalls and no reality.

Yogis living in the vital plane can't bring down those experiences into the physical. One can have some power, of course. But the forces of the vital plane take up a man like Hitler and make him do things. The man opens himself to the constant suggestions of these forces and believes they are the Truth. NB used to hear such suggestions which he called intuitions coming from the Mother. And when the Mother told him that it was not true he got angry and would not believe her. At last he had to leave the Ashram.

B was another case. He used to say that the Mother and I were there deep in his psychic being and these were the true Sri Aurobindo and the true Mother, while the physical Mother and Sri Aurobindo were false! The Mother repeatedly warned him about these illusions but he was so headstrong that he would not listen and had to go. We heard that he was making disciples in our name outside.

DR. BECHARLAL: How did he die so suddenly?

SRI AUROBINDO: Why suddenly? He was suffering from stomach-ache here, in spite of which he used to stuff himself with food. As long as he was here, somehow the protection kept him up. The Mother told him many times that if he left Pondy he would die. So when he went he passed the death-sentence on himself.

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6 JANUARY 1939

Today till 7.00 p.m. there was complete silence. Nobody was in a mood to talk or at least to begin the talk. Seeing this, Sri Aurobindo remarked, "You seem disposed to meditative silence." Purani had gone out and, on returning, heard the remark. Sri Aurobindo, addressing him, said, "I was wondering where you had suddenly vanished." Purani replied "I went to see the Mother. I asked her if liquorice root could be tried for your cough. It is very good for it." After one or two questions from Sri Aurobindo about liquorice the talk got really started with a question by Purani.

PURANI: Is there any difference between the two methods of effacement of ego: realisation of the Spirit above and its nature of purity, knowledge, etc., and realisation of humility in the heart? Isn't it possible to get rid of egoism by the second method too?

SRI AUROBINDO: Egoism may go ... (Then after a short silence) Yes, egoism may go ...

We caught the significance of the unfinished sentence and said, "Oh, you mean ego may remain?"

SRI AUROBINDO: Ego remains but becomes harmless. It may help one spiritually. Complete removal of ego is possible when one identifies oneself with the Atman and realises the same Spirit in all. Also when the mental, vital and physical nature is known to be a derivation from the universal mental, vital and physical. The individual must realise also his identity with the transcendental or the cosmic Divine, whatever you may call it.

From the mental plane, when one rises and realises the Spirit, it is generally the mental sense of ego that goes, not the entire ego sense. The dynamic nature retains ego, especially the vital ego. When the psychic attitude of humility comes in and joins with it, it helps in getting rid of the vital ego.

The complete abolition of ego is not an easy thing. Even when you think that it is entirely gone, it suddenly comes into your actions and movements. Especially important is the removal of the mental and vital ego; the others, the physical and subconscient, don't matter very much: they can be dealt with at leisure, for they are not so absorbing.

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By humility it is not outward humility that is meant. There are many people who profess and show the utmost outward humility, as if they were nothing, but in their hearts they think, "I am the man" People are mostly impressed and guided by outward conduct.

Mahadev Desai complained that I had lost the old charm of modesty. I did not profess like others that I was nothing. How can I say I am nothing when I know that I am not nothing?

BECHARLAL: Were you "modest" in your early life?

SRI AUROBINDO: I used to practise what you may call voluntary self-effacement or self-denial and I liked to keep myself behind. Perhaps Desai meant that by modesty. But I can't say that I was more modest within than others.

PURANI: Gandhi also seems to express modesty. When he differs from Malaviya or somebody else, he says, "He is my superior but I differ."

SRI AUROBINDO: But does he really believe that? When I differed in anything, I used to say very few words and remain stiff, simply saying, "I don't agree."

Once Surendranath Banerji wanted to annex the Extremist Party and invited us to the U. P. Moderate Conference to fight against Sir Pherozshah Mehta. But there was a clause that no association that was not of two or three years' standing could send delegates to the Conference. Ours was a new party. So we could not go. But Banerji said, "We will elect you as delegates." J. L. Banerji and others agreed to it, but I just said, "No." I spoke at most twenty or thirty words and the whole thing failed. How can you call a man modest when he stands against his own party?

Tilak used to do the same thing. He used to hear all the speeches and resolutions of the delegates but at the end pass his own resolutions. They said, "What a democratic leader he is! He listens to and considers all our opinions and resolutions."

Then at the Hooghly Provincial Conference we met again to consider the Morley-Minto reforms. The Moderates argued in favour of accepting the reforms. We were against them. We were in the majority in the Subjects Committee, while in the Conference they were in the majority. Surendranath Banerji was very angry with us and threatened that he and his party would break away from the Conference if their resolution was not

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accepted. I didn't want them to break away at that time, for our party was still weak. So I said to him, "We will agree to your proposal on condition I am allowed to speak in the Conference." In the Conference there was a great row and confusion. In the midst of it Aswini Dutt began jumping up and saying, "This is life, this is life!" Banerji tried hard to control the people but failed and B became furious. Then I stood up and told them to be silent and to walk out silently. I said that whatever agreement we came to, we would inform them. Everybody became silent at once and walked out. This made Banerji still more furious. He said, "While we old leaders can't control them, this young man of hardly thirty commands them just by lifting a finger!"

He could not understand the power of a man standing for some principles and the people following the leader in obedience to those principles. The influence of the Moderates was mainly on the upper middle class, the moneyed people.

It was at that time that people began to get the sense of discipline and order and of obeying the leader. They were violent but at the command of the leader they obeyed. That paved the way for Gandhi.

The Conference at that time was a very tame affair. There was nothing to do but pass already framed resolutions. Nobody put in even an amendment.

Banerji had personal magnetism, was sweet-spoken and could get round anybody. He also tried to get round me by flattering, patting and caressing. His idea was to use the Extremists as the sword and use the Moderates for the public face. In private he would go as far as revolution. He wanted a provincial board of control of revolution. Barin once took a bomb to him. The name of Surendranath Banerji was found in the bomb case. But as soon as Norton pronounced the name there was a "Hush, hush" and he shut up.

Barin was preparing bombs at my place at Baroda, but I didn't know it. He got the formula from N. Dutt who was a very good chemist. He, Upen and Debabrata were very good writers too. They wrote in the jugantar.

Here Purani brought in the topic of Oundh State and described the reforms the chief of the State was introducing. They seemed to be something like Sri Aurobindo's own ideas.

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SRI AUROBINDO: What provision is there for autonomous government in villages?

PURANI: The village panchayats have considerable power.

SRI AUROBINDO: But suppose the people "want socialism or communism?

PURANI: The chief is introducing co-operative farming.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is an excellent thing. But dictatorship of the proletariat is different. On paper, of course, it sounds nice but it is quite a different matter in practice. Everyone is made to think alike. That is all very good in a church or religion, but a church or religion is voluntary: you can choose there but you can't choose your country. If you think alike, there can't be any progress. If you dare to differ from Stalin, you are liquidated. I don't understand how humanity can progress under such conditions.

Look at Hitler. After all, what do all his ideas come to except that the Germans are the best nation in the whole world and Hitler should be their leader; all Jews are wicked persons; all people on earth should become Nazis; and France must be crushed. That's all!

There was a little further talk and then somebody spoke of certain governments acting like robbers.

SRI AUROBINDO: Are not all governments robbers? Some do the robbing with legislation and some without. In some countries you have to pay fifty percent of your income as taxes and you manage with the rest as best you can. Customs is another robbery. What an amount of money they collect in this way and yet I don't understand what they do with such a huge income. France was complaining that the Government produces only two hundred fifty aeroplanes as compared to the thousand of Germany. England produces five hundred and yet England has a sufficiently honest administration. There was a question the other day in the House of Commons as to what they were doing with the money and how it was that they were still unready for war.

PURANI: I heard a story from a customs officer that even Princes join in smuggling. Recently a Prince was caught along with a jeweller.

SRI AUROBINDO: With such customs rules smuggling seems almost a virtue! It looks like robbing a robber. You must have heard that the Maharaja of Darbhanga had to pay Rs. 50,000 as

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duty on the necklace of Marie Antoinette which he had bought for one lakh.

Purani then brought in the question of the Congress ministry, saying that Nariman had been elected again as a Congress member by Vallabhai Patel. He had been punished for betrayal of Congress in the election campaign.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is not betrayal but indiscipline. Dr. Kher, the Bombay Premier, seems to be a solid man.

PURANI: The Congress ministry appears to be fairly successful everywhere except in C. P.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that is the weak point. Yet Nagpur was a very good centre for Extremists in our time.

PURANI: They are thinking of separating C. P. Hindustani , from C. P. Marathi.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that is the obvious step to take. I wonder why they did not take it before.

7 JANUARY 1939

Purani told Nirodbaran to take the lead and said that if Nirodbaran had nothing to ask, he had a question ready. Nirodbaran told him he had one question to ask. So as soon as the Mother left and Sri Aurobindo was ready to talk, Nirodbaran began.

NIRODBARAN: Yesterday, did you mean, that by the psychic realisation one can't get rid of ego? I couldn't understand it.

SRI AUROBINDO: One can get rid of egoism but not of ego, For the psychic depends on the individual nature for its action. The lower nature has its hold on the individual and the psychic works through the individual. The psychic realisation is the realisation of the individual soul which feels itself as one in the many; your individuality is not lost in the realisation. The individual soul works in the mind and heart and other parts and purifies .them bringing in the realisation of devotion (Bhakti) and love. But the ego remains—it is the saint ego, the Bhakta ego, the ego of the Sadhu or the virtuous man: as Ramakrishna says, "Bhakta ami, das ami" ("Bhakta I, servant I") and Ramprasad says, "I want to eat

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sugar, not be sugar." The psychic of course opens the way to the realisation of the spiritual Self by -which the ego can go. By the realisation of the Spirit, you feel one -with the Divine and you see the One everywhere. The individual "I" is replaced by the Divine "I". The Spirit doesn't need the individual as the basis of action. Even so, it may be the abolition of the mental ego leaving the other parts to act in their own way. That is what is meant by allowing Prakriti to act in its own way till the death of the body takes place and when the body drops, it also drops. The psychic attitude has to come in to remove the ego from the vital and by the combination of the psychic and the spiritual realisations the ego can go.

I don't know if you have understood anything.

NIRODBARAN: Can both the realisations work together or must they be one after the other?

SRI AUROBINDO: In some, it may be the psychic that leads in the beginning, in others the spiritual. If it is the spiritual opening, then after some time it has to stop to bring the psychic element into the sadhana. Of course one can stop with the realisation in the mental plane, the psychic element not being necessary for it. But for complete transformation, both things are needed.

PURANI: In case of a weakening of the nervous envelope, can one replenish it by drawing the Force?

SRI AUROBINDO: Drawing from where? From the universal vital or from the Higher Force?

PURANI: The universal vital.

SRI AUROBINDO: Have you felt it?

PURANI: I mean drawing from the universal vital. That I felt while I was in the Guest House.

SRI AUROBINDO: You mean at the time when the sadhana has in the vital, that brilliant period?

PURANI: Yes; but now either due to lack of capacity or lack of will or some fear that drawing from that source may not be safe, I don't try.

SRI AUROBINDO: There is no harm in drawing from the universal vital. One can combine its action with that of the Higher Force.

If one is conscious of the nervous envelope and its weakening, one can put it right, replenish or increase its strength by any or both of the processes. But when you speak of lack of will, you must

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guard against any inertia of the being. At the time you speak of we were in the vital, the brilliant period of the Ashram. People were having brilliant experiences, a big push, energy, etc. If our Yoga had taken that line, we could have ended by establishing a great religion and bringing about a big creation. But our real work is different, so we had to come down into the physical, and working on the physical is like digging the ground; the physical is absolutely inert, dead like stone. When the work began there, all the former energies disappeared, the experiences stopped; if they came they didn't last. The progress is exceedingly slow. One rises, falls, rises again and falls again, constantly meeting with the suggestions of the Vedic Asuras, "You can't do anything, you are bound to fail."

You have to go on working year after year, point after point, till you come to a central point in the subconscient which has to be conquered and it is the crux of the whole problem, hence exceedingly difficult. You know what Vivekananda said about the nature of man? That it is like a dog's tail. So long as you keep it straight, it is so; then as soon as you release it, it curves back. This point in the subconscient is the seed and it goes on sprouting and sprouting till you have cut out the seed.

NIRODBARAN: We must thank the Creator for this gift!

SRI AUROBINDO: It is the Ignorance and from this Ignorance the Divine is working things out. If it were not so, what would be the meaning of the play? This Yoga is like a path cut through a jungle and once the path is made, it will be easy for those who come afterwards. But before that it is a long-drawn-out battle. The more you gain in your strength, the greater becomes the resistance of the hostile forces. I myself had suggestion after suggestion that I wouldn't succeed. But I always remember the vision the Mother had. It was like this. The Mother, Richard and I were going somewhere. We saw Richard going down to a place from which rising was impossible. Then we found ourselves sitting in a carriage. The driver was taking it up and down a hill a number of times; at last he stopped on the highest peak. Its significance was quite clear to us.

Satyeyndra: Will people who are newcomers have to go slowly too?

SRI AUROBINDO: Necessarily. The work being in the subconscient and the pressure on the physical, they will have to share the atmosphere — unless they isolate themselves from the atmosphere.

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There is a case of someone who made very good progress on the mental plane. He kept himself isolated- I mean inner isolation - from the atmosphere. But, as soon as he came to the vital, he couldn't go further, all his progress stopped.

Satyeyndra: The Newcomers can't make any rapid progress in that case.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? But, rapid progress is only possible when one keep's the right attitude, keep himself separate from all vital mixture. He must be able to fulfil the demands made on him.

NIRODBARAN: I suppose people who come after will be more lucky, for by your victory over the subconscient things will be easier.

SRI AUROBINDO: Maybe, in a way; but the demands may be more exiting. As regards Tapasya you can't deny that you had an easy time of it in the past.

Satyeyndra: But when one enters into the subconscient, does one who has had some contact with the Brahman lose that contact entirely?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is only apparently lost. Everything remains behind. But if he doesn't want to go further, his Yoga stops there. That's all. When the subconscient change has to come about, many will find it difficult. There will be some who will drop out because they do not fulfil the demands made on them. For instance Harin. At the beginning he was swimming in poetry and kept some old movements going. But as soon as the Mother decided that the sort of thing couldn't go on and his vital must change, he could not bear it and he dropped out. At one time, as I hinted you, the Mother was putting great pressure for a big push, as you know it is her nature to do. But no one could stand it; we thought whole thing would break. There was a great row in the vital. We had to withdraw. Of course we can do our work quicker, but how many will go through the ordeal?

If the sadhaks had kept the right attitude at the time when the sadhana was in the vital, there would not have been so much difficulty today even in working out the subconscient. For with the force and power gained at that time, the Mother could have come down into the physical and done the work with greater ease.

But the sadhaks resisted the attempt and continued to make demands on the Mother. Instead of allowing the Mother to raise them up, they tried to bring her down to their own level and for a time we had to consent. And that meant a delay in the work.

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There are also people who have told the Mother that they understand the nature of their difficulty, see their mistakes but haven't the power to resist. There are others too who have thought that they have been able to get rid of plenty of things, that these things didn't exist in them any more, and -were much surprised to see them again coming up in their nature.

That is all due to the subconscient; you reject a thing from the mind, it goes into the vital, from there to the physical; and when you drive it out from there, it lodges in the subconscient. Anger, sex, jealousy, attachment find refuge there. One has to throw them out of the subconscient - as the Yogis say, cut the seed out. That is why transformation is necessary. Without transformation of the nature, the subconscient seed of these things remains.

NIRODBARAN: But I don't understand how they can rush up or remain after realisation of the Divine or complete union with Him. If you ask me what I mean by complete union, I won't be able to define it.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is precisely what I will ask you.

NIRODBARAN: Take, for instance, Ramakrishna's case. never heard of any sex impulse rising in him.

SRI AUROBINDO: You didn't hear of his praying to Mother that the sex impulse must not come to him? He told if it did, he would take his life.

NIRODBARAN: But that was at the beginning.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; but the Mother or Cosmic Force didn't send the Kama any more.

NIRODBARAN: You mean it was in the subconscient.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, of course. If it had come up, he would have rejected it.

NIRODBARAN: Then if rejection is possible, why bother so much about transformation and all that?

SRI AUROBINDO: Ramakrishna is Ramakrishna. I bother because everybody is not Ramakrishna. Haven't you heard of many Yogis and Rishis falling from the path owing to these impulses?

I was suffering from some intermittent fever in the North for a long time. It continued here also. In the course of the fever someone above or something within me said, "No more fever," Something in my being accepted the suggestion and there was no fever! But not everybody can do it.

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Human nature is an extremely difficult business. I told you that my experience of calm and Nirvana has never left me but I had to work and work to establish that calm and equanimity in every part of my being. You know what is equanimity? It means that nothing stirs under any condition. Till last August I was successful. This accident was perhaps the last test of my equanimity. In that way one has to go on working things out till one reaches the central point in the subconscient which is the seed one has to cut out.

It is while working in this way that I came to notice many gaps that had not been filled up. It may be due to those gaps that the accident took place. When one has conquered that subconscient seed, a force will be established in the world-action and those who embody it will be able to throw it around them like waves for the change.

NIRODBARAN: I hope you are making rapid progress now.

SRI AUROBINDO: It looked as if I was, till the moment of the dent. When one comes into contact with a large Force, the progress is very rapid; but it is extremely difficult to get. It is peculiar that in a lying position I can't draw down the maximum Force, can't exert the highest Force which never fails. That Force is sure in its action even though temporary. But lying down I can't use it, perhaps because this is a tamasic position, a position of relaxation or rest, and I am not used to it. I get the highest Force walking or sitting. With this cough, for instance, I felt too lazy to apply any Force. Only when it became annoying did I do it.

NIRODBARAN: Is there any truth in the demand for an erect position in meditation? People here assume all sorts of postures.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the erect posture helps in the meditation. Whatever one receives in the subtle body is easy to transmit both physical through that posture. There are so many Asanas and one can get the right position, then the body doesn't move.

NIRODBARAN: The Mother's body also stoops down in meditation

SRI AUROBINDO: Her body is very plastic. It changes according to the nature of the meditation. You know, formerly her appearance used to change.

NIRODBARAN : X, we hear, is obliged to get up when the light comes down into his body. .

SRI AUROBINDO: That means he can't hold the power when it comes.

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